Ray Cheydleur, Printing and Imaging Product Portfolio Manager, X-Rite PANTONE®, discusses the current state of specifications and standards like:
Part II of our discussion covers standards development and why it matters to the global print and packaging supply chain.
Cheydleur is also the Chair of the U.S. Technical Advisory Group (USTAG) to ISO Technical Committee 130 (ISO TC130) that develops standards for the graphic arts industry, Chairman of ANSI/CGATS and Vice-Chair of the International Color Consortium (ICC).
This Gamut podcast is Part II of a two-part discussion to update and explain the current state of specification and standards development. See Part I here »
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This episode of the GAMUT Printing & Packaging podcast is brought you by Kodak. Kodak is a global technology company focused on print and advanced materials & chemicals. We provide industry-leading hardware, software, consumables and services primarily to customers in commercial print, packaging, publishing, manufacturing and entertainment.
Jeff Collins: 0:04
So here's the question. In the print and packaging supply chain, how do we deliver new ideas and innovative practices to continually improve your profit, your brand and your quality? Welcome to the GAMUT podcast, and I am your host, Jeff Collins, director of Print Technologies for Idealliance. We are a non-profit global think tank serving the graphic communications industry with 12 offices strategically located around the world to better support our membership. You can support the GAMUT podcast and content like this by becoming a member of Idealliance by going to www.idealliance.org.
Jeff Collins: 0:44
Today's episode is sponsored by Kodak. Kodak is a global technology company focused on print and advanced materials and chemicals. They provide industry leading hardware, software, consumables and services primarily to customers in commercial print, packaging, publishing, manufacturing and entertainment.
Jeff Collins: 1:07
Welcome everyone, back to the GAMUT Podcast. This is part two of a two-part discussion with Ray Cheydler. And Ray, today, is going to talk to us about quality control, process control, color management for textiles and then dive really deep into ICCmax. So stay tuned. Make sure you listen to this podcast and make sure you follow us on LinkedIn. So, Ray, to get started, tell me about what's happening with X-Rite and some of the things that make life a little bit easier to manage when we're talking about textiles, inkjet, direct-to-fabric solutions and now they can color manage that with some pretty familiar color servers that we have in the print industry. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on textiles and process control.
Ray Cheydleur: 2:00
Yeah, it's an interesting thing. So first of all, we talk about ECG, right? And so one of the things we're seeing in a large format stuff which tends to also introduce into the textile side, is the textile world. Not that long ago, for the most part, was really not about printing textiles or not about printing textiles digitally. But so much of the textile world has now moved to digital print, either for things like billboards, right? Who thought billboards. We're gonna be printed on text of, but for all sorts of good reasons. That's true, you know, easier to ship, easy to set up better for the environment. Great. But then we also have backlit signage that's being used in other places. And then we also have director garment printing all of these kind of things. This part of the printing world is exploding, right? And in the old days, in the old days, like my old days, um, you know, what would happen is we were happy to get bright, vibrant color onto the textile. That was a win that's no longer a win. That's like Well, yeah, but it's not the right red. That's not the red I wanted in my fabric design that doesn't represent my brand color. So, you know, that goes down to the same challenges we had in print years and years ago, right? We need to have control. So part of that is having the right targets to be able to to go and, uh, you characterize a 4678 color wide format device or, you know, checking proofing versus that control. So, you know, one of things I worked with the Print Properties group is just having something as simple as a large format control wedge primarily for textiles, but for the rest of the wide format world as well. Because we introduced a product the Island Pro three plus into this last year. And I go well, how do you How do you control this fruit? Well, we don't have the standard. I started for that. And it's like, Whoa, you know, clearly there's some places here that, as I became more educated in what was going on in that market, that it became clear that these guys have the same challenges we've had in other areas, and they were right for this to get tools that will really help them control their process. So, you know, i d Alliance created this large format text Operating Control Ridge right at the right time, Right? Hit rate is the whole industry. Was moving thio needing that kind of control? There they were.
Jeff Collins: 4:35
So, Ray, you referenced the I pro three plus in just to let our listeners know in a couple weeks, wanna have one of Ray's colleagues on Jacob lied to talk about the I pro three plus in its features and how that applies a textile so good go in a little deeper into the use of that device and quality control or process control for the I pro three and textiles. Very interesting conversation. Rae. I want to move on to communicating print quality information throughout the supply chain brands are definitely in need of. They demand better communication of standards and specifications and things make sure their products are you conforming thio two things like grackles 2013 g seven, their spot color tolerances and in the packaging industry we talked to a lot of people from the brand side, as well as from their prints service providers. And they all say the communication is the key in any way that we can automate that and make that foolproof Human error proof eyes Ah, step in the right direction. So I'm gonna talk to you about P Q X. That's the print quality exchange format that started out in the idea lines Print Property Color Metric Committee. You've been untangle part of that as well as a few others like I want to forget anybody but Mark Levin. And there's many people that have collaborated on this. Diane Kitty was the chair, So talk to me about this specifications in and standard and schema print quality exchange format that will help bridge the gap and communicating back and forth. Thio brands print buyers and, well, the entire supply chain.
Ray Cheydleur: 6:17
One of the things that most of our standardized print spaces talk about right are seem like a right right and get when we talk about brands were often talking about special colors, income and things like that. That air dinner that are the brand, right? So So those those go beyond just have you hit crackle. You know, you may be running grackles for the images, but you're you're carrying trade information, brand information on spot colors and that for them, you know, that's like their name. So
Jeff Collins: 6:48
yeah, and this is an important aspect as faras X, right? Pantone. I mean, it's ah, you live deeply in both
Ray Cheydleur: 6:56
worlds. Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, you know, Pantone is the name in in spot colors. I mean, there, you know, many people think of that is a synonymous kind of process, and certainly from from brands we work with brands too have specific Pantone colors associated with brands. But also it's it's the idea that, um this whole idea of carrying across the workflow it's part of Interval to the two are argo, right? Because we start all the way up in the viewing area, and then we, you know, work through with measuring in software solutions that go through every step of the process. And that's where we really saw this challenge. So and so So you know, P Q X is trying to answer that in a different way, right? It's it's saying, Okay, so let's say you've got solutions from, you know, different vendors. How can we move that quality information to whatever place there? So it's again. It's a communication challenge to go do that and pique your ex really requires it. Some level PR exes. Well, they're not, as standards were not built, so one requires the other. But really, as I said before in a different East, often to make a standard work, it requires looking at the workflow and other on either side of that standard as well. I sit in and pick U S and P R X, or sort of like that because P Q X is the raw quality data, and that's what it is. And it's a great, well defined using c x fx slash ex, you know, in the ER for doing the measurement stuff and communicating measurement data So it's a well, you know, laid out plan for that. It has lots of other data in there as well. But the thing is, is that that's so That's the measurement data. That and the quality raw data. But it doesn't have the requirements Park built into it. All right, so that's where P R X comes into. And while B Q X is now done, it's a nice a standard. Thankfully, that's whatever you said. Five years of work later, Um, NPR X is close to being done. It's not quite done yet, so that's part of the puzzle is to get those two pieces as finalized standard. But then it's also to see how that works in the workflow. Like I mean, so X Ray has probably one of the colors are probably one of the largest quick quality reporting systems out there, and one of the challenges that we see from brands right is that they would love to have every printer participate, and so they want to do that. But the printer wants to know before they get there that they're submitting the quality that the brand wants. So the raw data isn't quite enough that's where you knowing what the requirements are from P R X or some other process is important. But then also, there's challenges in how that p Q X data gets admitted, right, Because for many of our brands, you know they want qualified printers submitting, which means that they have some information that is proprietary, that they want encrypted. And then they have going into a server where they don't wanna have any corruption of data. Eso You know, we have to do penetration testing with the call in Internet world in testing next accepts. So, you know, all of this stuff are the starts to become the elements. To create a system to go does do that. So just be able to write a P q X isn't gonna be enough, just like just being able to write, you know, uh, see, except file isn't enough, right, unless we know where the system wants to do it. But these are the elements that are gonna bring us that system to have a better exchange across there. If you're if you've been working with different suppliers and different parts of the process so so that you know, this is The cool thing right is that these are the building blocks. Um, but any building bought by itself is just still sort of an island. We gotto work them together to make them make them happen. Yeah,
Jeff Collins: 10:58
it's ultimately you. It solves the automation. I want to say automation of transparency. I don't know if that's a new term or may we
Ray Cheydleur: 11:09
e I think you coined one jab,
Jeff Collins: 11:12
right? Automation like Internet of things will call it Oh t Automation of transparency. So great. The next topic that want to discuss is so pass 15339 And these Air seven data sets that have been published that air based on G seven great bones and tone ality and very, you know, common Hugh angles all things that air conditions target conditions that are important. And the when we look att ice Oh, specifications and standards globally global use for them. We kind of get lost in the alphabet soup again of acronyms. And so we have a nice of standard. And then we have what I just mentioned ice. So pass 15339 So can you explain to our listeners I so passing on. What? How is that defined?
Ray Cheydleur: 12:09
In a sense, ah, passes a publicly available specifications. All right, so this is something that s o believes is important to get out there. But like I said before, you know, standard once we make a standard, we don't want to change it dramatically. Right? And so when we introduced, she gets 21 of which 15339 Is the ice so derivative that this was kind of a new process. This is that learning process right where it was m one and everything was, you know, near neutral or G seven. Right? So everything in there had this nice relationship from one process to the next for no one quality paper to annex quality of paper. So it has. So this was this reference print condition or a way to exchange. You know, data was a little bit of a new thing for the world. We've been doing this in in the U S for a while and certainly, you know, through idea Alliance for a while. So we've done this process getting into the world. It was like a little scary, I'd say. Right. So there was there was concern. So we went down originally the idea of making it a standard and it met some resistance. And so, by making it a publicly available specifications, that makes the resistance less. And let's get out there to the broader audience than just, ah, us Spaniard moves. And now that time is up, so to speak. Um, what happens with a public available specifications? Nyssa says. Okay, so we've had a chance to Eric to the world now. Either it's good enough to become a nice it on, you know, international standard, and I s or we should pull it out of there because it didn't meet industry's need. We can see you look at the number of documents around the world that referenced these printing conditions Now, right? Has waited test things as a way of actually exchanging information and so forth that, you know, two years from now, this thing times out. And so this is the time when we're going to start up and do the little dibs and dabs you've got to do to change from a p a s to n i s so that it can become a eso standards so that you know people outside of, uh, that the world who still need again they're going to a standard or true standard will have the benefits of having these reference print conditions as standard conditions. What are
Jeff Collins: 14:35
some of the objections that more might find if they were sitting in a nice meeting, determining and trying to make a decision collectively, to make this a standard? Does it have to be used by 10 people? Does ah company with the billions of dollars in the bank used its? You know, they use it all the time. That's case study, is it? Yep. Google uses it. Microsoft uses, So it must be good. Let's make it a standard. That's the case. If that's the case, it should be a stand.
Ray Cheydleur: 15:05
Yeah, well, e, I wish it were so simple, right? Yeah, but But the reality is the, you know, standards are made up of countries, countries heir who get the votes right, and so it requires a standard requires ah, pretty high bar, you know, for the number of countries that boat positively for that standard. And so that's like 75% of the countries who are part of that particular technical committee need to vote positively where a PS is about 50% and I may have those numbers off a little bit because I'm not looking him up. But But the point is right, the bar is different. And so when you bring something that's new right, it's It's harder to get to that 75% agreement. It's new. And so, you know, think about what we said when we looked at 12647 days to the fact that we're bringing near neutral into there because the world is really requesting it. Yeah, so that was one of the challenges of 15339 is because it was G seven. It was near neutral and many people weren't there yet The world has moved on, Right said. Now, the fact that many Pete many more people in the world are using G seven and many people have now recognized the value of these reference. Print conditions now make this process easier. But this is a question of, you know, in a sense, socialization, right? It's a question of getting people to understand things that air a little bit abstract. Maybe so you know, that's the same thing that, uh, the whole goal of this podcast is Let's say these standards aren't out of nowhere, right? It's socializing the use of these standards
Jeff Collins: 16:38
perfect. So moving right along, Ray really interested in knowing as well what is happening with I. C. C. Max. This is a level of improvement for the I. C C specifications and talk to us about I. C c Max. What's the current state where we at and what do we got to look forward to in the future?
Ray Cheydleur: 17:02
Yes way. Think about Isis C collar management in the form that we're using it primarily today, and it seems like it works well for most people. So why why do we need another specifications? Right, But but the answer is pretty straightforward because we moved into some new worlds. Printing is no longer just the one area, but we've got a printing on all sorts of different materials. We've got printing that's used in different places, and so there's a lot of different pieces that that the current I C. C didn't envision when it was built, several of them that are near and dear to my heart, which you know we've had to work around a cz Ah, makers of Ah, I see. I see Profiling package one is the current version of ice. T. C is fixed d 50 color, um, a tree. So you know, our standard viewing graphic arts is D 50 which is great. But if you need to have your color imagery or your output matched for a particular place, D 50 may not be this but the spot. Or if working in an industry where there there norm is d 65 which is Oh, yeah, like almost every industry other than the graphic arts right, that becomes a little bit more of a challenge. So I should see Max. One of things that allows you to do is define any kind of color imagery that you want to use. That's a huge step forward. And now for us to do this inside, I want profiler. We sort of do some secret sauce halfway through the process to go write this back in in forms of d 50 kind of sort of that. It's it's a challenge. And then one of the things also is it says, Hey, you can use spectral data because then if they have spectral data on that profile, there's all sorts of other things you could do. You could do this change in color, Emma Tree. We can do lots of other things. You can track down things like, you know, is this color going to look the same under three different like conditions, Right, The cameras. Right. So
Jeff Collins: 18:59
this is my Tamar is, um really is what you're telling me?
Ray Cheydleur: 19:02
Yeah, it's exactly the case, But think about that in terms of, you know, I'm going to go print some textiles and I don't want this. I don't want my green socks to turn a different color than you know, my pants that I'm also digitally printing. Then suddenly, uh, this is something that I can deal with or predict both potentially using different pieces of Isis C. Max. But I can't do that in any way. At current Isis profile, it's Isis. C max is a nice of standard. Um, as I usually say when I talk about standards, none of the standard stand alone, right? In this case, it's not so much that the standard needs other standards air inside of it, but it needs other workflow tools around there. So if I want to use, uh, Isis C Max profile and I want to use it, I want to build it in X y Z tool and then go use it in my ripped for my wide format printer. It means that that white format printer needs to accept the use of Isis C. Max profile. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. It's early day is for this process. I mean, I think that on the original Isis see profiles and then when we moved to I C. C version for how long it took some of the commercially standard tools, if you will, I mean, you know, very popular commercial tools to get up to speed of proper implementation of Isis see version for. And that's the kind of thing we're seeing with Isis C. Max right now. So the best implementation Lucy advice is the max now are essentially enclosed worlds. I see. You know if if I want to use, I see Max and some of the power of I C C max in a in a display profiling package so I can do some cool things with that I could do that cause it exists in its own world. If I want to do that inside my own Rip Aiken potentially do that in my own rip, and I can get some valuable stuff out of that. But we're not seeing yet that that acceptance across, you know from the different workflow tools and one of the reasons why is the fact that Isis C. Max is huge and it was never meant to be used as one big thing. It was really designed. Thio take created a very open specifications at squeezing see, except his measurement data and spectral data and things like that. But you know, it has the tools inside there to use a certain portion of Isis C Max to do things like very small profiles using algorithms instead of lots of measurement data. Or, you know, maybe what it want. Maybe what you want to do is do something. It requires something else, and but you wanna make sure that it will work in this workflow in the future. So the concept and Isis C. Max to make that all work is something that is a mouthful is something called interoperability conformance specifications. While it's a mouthful. What it really says is we'll take this a little piece, this little I. C s right and that will define the use for something.
Jeff Collins: 22:18
Raylan Me, you paint a scenario or a possible use case that I, C. C. Max may solve or may not solve. And that's color alignment across different materials. So let's take a ah ah campaign merchandising campaign where we have a couple players. Let's say we have a tennis shoe manufacturer, AH, sports apparel manufacturer and gaming and a sports team. Okay, so that ad campaign and everything that goes into it we have cross media or social media marketing or cross platform marketing, whatever you wanna call it, and then we, of course, we have images going out for signs and displays. We have images on TV commercials. Then we have the game itself, and we're looking at the color through the monitor, and then we have 10 issues and then the sports apparel. And then, of course, the brand identity guidelines for that, let's say it's the Chicago Bulls and Michael Jordan, Okay, but we want all of that to come together and look similar to I C. C. Max help solve that. Solve that scenario.
Ray Cheydleur: 23:31
I follow you and you've really gone perhaps even further, right? I mean, that's the beauty and the problem in Isis c. Max. Like you said, Oh, I want to know how this tennis shoe looks, that it looks right in this rendered condition really right, because you're talking about putting it into a video game or something, and that's a different. You know, that requires different stuff. And I see Max and potentially some other things too. But but, you know, that requires a different set of tools. Maybe, you know, you need to measure that with a multi angle device because you've got not just you've got multiple different kinds of fabrics and reflective things and things like that. So you need all that Well, guess what? An isis C. Max profile can accept multi angle information and do very cool things with it. But, you know, you said what? How will it help me today? And the answer is right now it helps you indiscreet tools. It helps you in a display piece where it helps you in your rib. And the next step using these icy s is is to get that interoperability between the different systems, You have to be one of the small steps that we've taken it. X right is, you know, we write a version of Isis C. Max stuff in. We make it an auction into some profiles That takes some things that we've had in proprietary parts of the I C C profile. So, like spectral data, things like that and move it in to the public places for isis c max profile so that if you're gonna take this profile, you need to take this into a nice C max workflow, then the data is there, right? So that's a very small step down this road. But that's the kind of process that we need to start within. The next step is getting these. These I. C. S is into place so that we can all use them in some of the the bigger players in the market, maybe can then embrace them more wholeheartedly than they have so far. But the beauty of icy Max is exactly where you were headed. Right is I've got ah set of requirements that it's a take my brand from a video game two point of display to printed product to you know, something else?
Jeff Collins: 25:49
Maybe social media video were
Ray Cheydleur: 25:52
Yeah, yeah, Let's look at a big one right now. Right? So let's look at HDR display. It's HD ours. You know, you walk into your local big box store and you're getting hit with all these high definition TV sets and so forth. Well, the current kind of architecture for I C. C. Is got some challenges when you get to these kind of conditions which are has some very unique properties. When we look att, these very large gamut very high tonight. Well, um, brightness displays, right? So this is a case where I see Max could help solve some of those as well, right? We can solve some of them using traditional. I see methods, but I seem access and things that would allow us to do Maur better as I like to say better and so and so we're going to see that stuff. But, you know, we're in early days yet, and this is this is where it's interesting because it doesn't seem like really days. I've been organized isis C max for a while now, and our came and the whole I. C. C. Has been working on this, but I just try and use that review mirror and look at how long it's taken. Now. Each of the steps oh, I see, see to get the industrywide adoption and how far once the adoption it's happened, have asked, it suddenly moved the industry forward, right? And so that's the same process here is I see Max's building momentum. A lot of people want to know about it. It's not quite in the toolbox for, but it's starting to be in the toolbox for some people. We get the level of adoption we have now or three times, and suddenly it's just gonna be it's gonna take off and allow the industry do some very cool things that right now are very challenging for industry. A video
Jeff Collins: 27:30
and what parts of the industry and the print impacting side of the house has. I C C max really gained traction,
Ray Cheydleur: 27:38
and the two that air they're most likely you're most likely to see it right now today are going to be in a display and in a few rips, largely the rips being ones that have to deal with Ah, none paper substrates, you know so in the wide format area and things like that. But you're going to see it there because it it's sounds immediate problems for them right away. The next place you'll see it, I think, is when we use in any kind of process is we're going to see potentially the ability to do this for what I call, and I don't think that's what I see, Max called it, but algorithmic profiles right building profiles at a very small data sets and iterating those profiles with with a minimum of information. And that's useful in pretty much any kind of print.
Jeff Collins: 28:30
Absolutely. It's definitely make a difference. This force Time thio allying a device to whatever the target condition that's required because of having the way for Spectra. Tom Attar's. Even if I had an off line and I could, uh, let's say, cut the pat sighs in half of the moth wine device, I mean, that's going to be much more efficient. And we all went better and more accurate profiles without ah large amount of labor.
Ray Cheydleur: 29:00
But you know, in some ways, the most exciting stuff for me are things like, you know, understanding um, right now, when we look at it, print on paper and we see a proof. But we see Elektronik Lee, we lose a lot of the characteristics of the paper, right? So we don't understand what the impact of the gloss or the slight texture of that paper is or that kind of stuff. And most the way a ways that it's rendered right now are not really direct information of that actual surface characteristics. They're just saying, you know, it's canvas or it's whatever, but it's generic, all right? This is one of the areas where I think from a permit upstream process. As we look about design, you could encode in that profile things about the material specifications. So I specify that I want to make this shoe out of this kind of material, or I want to print this on too a deluxe canvas and understand how that's gonna interact with the light in the environment that I'm gonna go in. That's huge stuff, and that stuff is all doable. So,
Jeff Collins: 30:09
Ray, fantastic. And thank you so much for taking these very technical topics and making them easy to understand. I personally got a tremendous amount out of this discussion in the one that we did previously and thank you for taking the time Thio share that with us today. If you need any more information on some of the subjects that we've covered, you can always visit Idee Alliance at idee alliance dot org's or follow us on LinkedIn and, of course, X ray. A plethora of information up there on some of these subjects, or even color dot org's another reference that is very, very valuable, especially when we're talking about I c c max. So Ray again, Thank you and take care. Thanks for listening to the gamut podcast. If you have ideas, suggestions or would like to join us or even sponsor future podcast, simply email me at J. Collins and idea lines dot org's. That's J C O L L I. N s at idea lines dot org's take care and have a productive day